Nov
Reality and Fantasy: Finding the Moral Barrier
Lots of jawing and not-so-fancy words from this post.
A while ago I’ve finished the route of kyun kyun imouto, Sakuno and I’m glad the writers took a more “serious” approach to her story. It really takes the social taboo of sister love by the horns and really wrestles around with the feelings and morality behind it. Because of that, I enjoyed Sakuno’s route much more than other imouto stories in certain aspects.
Though when it comes to the actual problem, there is quite a load of opinions thrown around and many folks in the world do have real struggles with it. Unfortunately, this kind of topic usually brings scorn and condemnation from both sides and is not usually taken with a willingness to understand.
Besides the whole genetics issue, there are still many problems regarding incest, and yes that also includes the non-blood relationships. If I was a father and raised my son and daughter for roughly twenty years, I will feel weirded out if they both suddenly said, “DADDY! WE’RE GONNA HAVE BABIEZ TOGETHER!”
Am I supposed to look at my son and my daughter as my children or a lustful couple wanting to “shag it up?” How do I explain to my grandchildren about their unique parents? It’s complicated in a bad way. If my children marry outside the family, I would not have to deal with these unnecessary problems and it saves a lot of emotional turmoil and awkwardness. It is a relief to not be on guard in case my son have nasty thoughts and wants to nail my wife and his mother.
Also incest will usually create a divide in the family. It will weaken and even break the bonds of trust between loved ones. If you don’t believe me, take a look at the Jerry Springer/Maury show. You don’t see the whole family line jumping for joy over incest. Instead, there is a lot of crying, guilt, pain, and bloodshed.
So I have my reasons why I’m against incest and it may sound arrogant, but I think they’re pretty good ones too. I can understand the power of attraction and why certain individuals want to go that “route” but I hope they understand the consequences behind it too.
“But M3rry! I thought you LURVE IMOUTOS!” someone might say. And yes, I do have MOE over imoutos. So doesn’t that mean I am secretly an incest supporter? Let me make it clear to you. NO.
This is where things get easily misunderstood. There are a bunch of idiots in the world who cannot understand the difference between what is acceptable in reality and fantasy. For example, there are a huge number of fictional rape fantasies catered to women. It is sexually stimulating to the intended audience but that does not make it morally right. And I’m ninety-nine percent sure most women would not want it to actually happen even if the guy is Edward Cullen (maybe).
Contrary to what many people believe, there is a universal moral standard. Sure there are secluded tribes out there who eat people and rape women for pleasure and honestly believe it’s okay. But this is a genetic fallacy. Just because the raping cannibals think it’s justifiable and morally right doesn’t prove it is. The rest of the world can easily say there is something morally wrong with cannibalism and rape.
So to sum it all up, human beings can understand what is morally right and wrong. What’s amazing is that there are people who can also see what is and isn’t acceptable in reality and fantasy! Humans can see the difference between what could be done and what shouldn’t be done! Unfortunately, there will always be folks who cannot see it on both sides of the issue. Those GTA kids and loli picture haters sure don’t.
Okay, time to end this on a light note. I was lured into trying out that shapeshifting watchamacallit on phi-age’s site and received this.
Tags: ExE, Mashiroiro Symphony, Shape Shifter, Toriko No Hime, Twilight
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November 20th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
The sudden moral indignation has left me baffled.
November 20th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
Incest is bad because inbreeding really mucks up your children. There is an actual period during early childhood where they develop a sort of “anti-attraction” towards those they grow up with during those years. It’s an actual biological and psychological phenomenon we as a species have developed to prevent ourselves from becoming sexually attracted to family members. Actual tests have been done: many communities raise their children together in groups that stay together throughout their childhood and in all of them it is extremely rare to find any couple that hook up later in life; like 1 out of twenty or so.
There’s also a phenomenon where if a brother and sister are separated at or near birth, and then are suddenly re-united at an adult or near-adult age they will feel an irresistable attraction towards one another; perhaps due to similarity of genes, pheromones, or something. That “anti-attraction” phenomenon that occurs during childhood is there to biologically prevent such incidents from happening.
However, as much animals we are, humans do have the unique capacity to alter their environment and themselves. A time may come in the future where we gain enough command of our own genetics to make inbreeding a non-existent danger, and where culture may become relaxed enough that sex is no longer something held in taboo or as a sacred act of procreation, and where sex might be as looked upon as something like simple play or social bonding.
Developed societies have gone beyond inter-racial couplings, and are close to tolerating homosexuals. Perhaps one day, through time and technological development, we may come to tolerate incest as well.
November 20th, 2009 at 9:23 pm
I don’t think there are universal “morals.” I think some of things those so called morals stop us from doing are from evolution. Incest does not happen often because we’re evolved to spread our genes. Those we engaged in incest were less likely to spread their genes due to problems that such close breeding brings.
I’d say a likely reason we’ve evolved not to be cannibals is to stop the spread of disease. Spreading disease from human to human is a lot easier than animal to human, so we eat animals instead.
As for raping women, I’d say it’s another way of ensuring your genetics are passed on. Raping random women could get you killed if she has a partner. Sure, raping lots of random women spreads your seed, but babies probably had a much lower survival rate long ago without a father.
November 20th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
I’ve read this, and my mind just responded with ‘WUT?’ which then became ‘wakaranai’, finally ending on ‘just heck care’.
Regarding my views on the incest thing, perhaps there’s something to be said for the absence of parents? You kind of grow attached to those close to you in that time, that’s what I feel. Of course, as for actually bearing children… thats the problem of inbreeding.
Quoting this: Humans can see the difference between what could be done and what shouldn’t be done! Unfortunately, there will always be folks who cannot see it on both sides of the issue.
There’s a bit of a mistake in that, humans are too myriad to be so easily generalized. There are definitely those who CANNOT see the difference, and it’s because of that we’ll have folks who cannot see both sides of the issue. Kind of an A leads to B thing, except that B gets extra support from people who can’t be bothered to think for themselves.
November 20th, 2009 at 11:15 pm
m3rry only loves imoutos that weren’t his own imoutos, as we all are, and as everyone should are. No need to develop the discussion too far. lol
You get ランス? He will plunder all you waifus away. lol
November 20th, 2009 at 11:53 pm
2D imouto is different from 3D imouto.
Someone’s imouto is different from your imouto.
Taboos make things interesting. Just keep fantasy and reality separate.
I had more points, but I can’t think properly at the moment. Need sleep.
November 21st, 2009 at 12:30 am
@Hemisphere: Well in a sense, morality has been degrading over the past centuries so I’m not too surprised.
@Newprimus: Ah, you’re talking about the Westermarck effect.
I don’t know man. If you’re saying that it’s okay to have sex with whoever you please than I have problems with that. If I’m married, I don’t want my wife to think sex is just simple play or social bonding like making conversation. Call me a romantic, but I want her to think of only me and I think of only her when we have sex. I do believe it is something special.
@Reikon: Hmm, I guess we differ on our ideology because I do believe there is a universal moral.
If for example I see a drowning stranger, I can debate with myself about whether I should help him or not, but I know deep down I should help him not because of the possible genetic benefits behind it, but because it is the right thing to do. I might be too optimistic in saying this, but I don’t think anyone can honestly believe in their heart that ignoring him is not a bad thing.
And even if it was culturally right to leave a drowning man to drown, that doesn’t prove it is moral by its own merits.
@Wrathkal: I think I might have made an error in my quote. I should have said that people refuse to look at both sides of the issue. I find it hard to believe that a person cannot see a difference between reality and fantasy with the level of intelligence we have now. What makes man unique from animals is that we can choose to do what we believe is moral than follow our instinctual desires.
@Kresnik: I tend to think really deeply at random so it’s a bit of a habit. =P
I would not want to meet Rance. I’m afraid I wouldn’t be able to stop my murderous rage if he comes near my waifus.
@Micchi: Lol, oyasuminasai!
November 21st, 2009 at 2:52 am
Wait what was the genetic problem with family sex again? Recessive genes right? >_>
November 21st, 2009 at 6:08 am
Haha, morality and standards have been decreasing so much anyway nowadays. A lot of the reasons is that we are progressing and becoming better and more open about new ideas. In my point of view however, it’s more about being able to bang more people or do more retarded things while saying we are progressing. If you notice, people tends to get more conservative as they grow up and the reason? When they are young, they just want to bang a lot of people are do whatever they want so they go against morality while preaching that they are being “open” and progressing society with new ideas. Some even went as far as saying that we are basically animals so why should we control ourselves? Well, we are animals yet we have a developed brain for a reason. We don’t bang other people with our brains now do we? However, as they become older and settled down, as well as their hormones starting to calm a bit, they notice that some of those ideas are just retarded and therefore, they become more conservative. However, there are ideas that they still keep even if they become older and usually those ideas are the actual ideas that progress society.
Of course, I’m sleepy and I don’t even know if I get across what I think. Anyway, delicious imoutos are delicious but at the same time, thinking of it freaks me out. Funny isn’t it? Good thing they’re not my imoutos.
November 21st, 2009 at 7:40 am
It’s partially a mix of refusal & inability. E.g. That person closes his mind to a certain issue, which doesn’t necessarily have to be the issue in question, and because of that restriction, he’ll be unable to bend his mind around the main issue. Not to mention that some people enjoy escapism far too much for their own good.
We could debate this for a very long time, but let’s not.
Hurry make another review please! Or do one of those ‘types of ero’ posts that Hemi did last time, those are usually quite interesting.
As for the imouto factor, if it’s the imouto stereotype you like, what exactly DOES make up that stereotype? Something has to set it apart from other character types.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:57 pm
Wrathkal: WHAT? I love these sort of discussions. We don’t get them often
Very cool post M3rry. Nicely written.
Like you. I do believe there is a “universal moral standard”. People can argue that society’s morality perhaps holds us back, but one good read of “Lord of the Flies” should be enough to to show anyone that moral standards are good.
Also, sexuality in fiction is entertaining is because that is exactly what it is: FICTION.
“I might be too optimistic in saying this, but I don’t think anyone can honestly believe in their heart that ignoring him is not a bad thing.”
Kresnik: Having been playing Rance. You gotta wonder…what’s it like for male Alicesoft employees when they have share scenario info to female employees. Lots of lolz right there.
Also. This has been said before but:
Whoever invented the “imouto-character” likely did not have a sister.
November 21st, 2009 at 11:59 pm
“The only people who want to fuck their sisters, do not have sisters” or something like that…
Though sadly, thine eyes have bared witness to horrors of when a father finds out his kids have been “playing” with each others privates and it hath twisted me.
Oh and by the way I have two half sisters I’ve never met.
November 22nd, 2009 at 4:57 am
@ Avisch
Actually, moral standards does hold us back … from banging other people freely as well as “doing whatever the fuck we want”. There is always a limit to everything and when we go over that limit, bad things happen. Too much moral standards and we have problems. Too much freedom and we have problems. There’s a line but sadly we tend to be on the extreme.
November 22nd, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Silver: Augh mistyped something somehwere. My point was actually what you said.
Moral standards DO hold us back, which in turn is a good thing for some obvious reasons, ie. it is perceived as wrong to go around hurting people.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:42 pm
@SnooSnoo: I do think you’re right and usually they bring harmful, long-lasting traits.
@Silver: You have an interesting point about the stage of growth that I didn’t really think about before.
And people do use their brains during banging! How else do we employ our positions and techniques to maximize the pleasure experience!?
@Wrathkal: I do agree with you on that. It is a person’s choice to close the ears and mind.
Ah….yes….reviews….I have drafts but I’m too lazy to finish them. >_>
@Avisch: Thanks! I’m no wordsmith like Owen, but I do enjoy the occasional exchange of philosophical ideals. As you said, it doesn’t happen often because there are many who are very convicted to their beliefs and leads to unpleasant results.
@Sterling01: Man, I wish the best to your family and for the father. I can’t imagine what kind of situation it is, but I wish a strong and lasting foundation of love, understanding, and respect amongst all of you.
I’m really hoping your half-sisters are not hot for your sake.
November 24th, 2009 at 6:50 am
@Avisch & m3rry: Lol, if that’s the case, then I don’t mind joining that exchange, but not in this way of messaging. Got MSN Messenger acct?
Anyway, your point on using brains during banging could also be explained by the instinct to seek out more pleasure. In the first place, by aiming for H for the pleasure alone seems to utilize very little of the brain’s cognitive abilities.
November 25th, 2009 at 8:01 am
so im predicting that sakuno’s story will b somewhat similar to minato’s story from akane-iro… dam… but ill be damn ready for it cause this is what is status quo is about im becoming a dangerous person….
November 26th, 2009 at 5:13 am
@m3rry: I’m not saying every action is based on the propagation of genetics, but those examples were. I’m arguing that we’re evolved to act the way we do, and besides those basic human instincts, morals are created by society.
Your example of helping someone in need can also be explained by our evolution as a social creature. We have to help each other in order to survive. But there’s a limit to helping when it can harm one’s own chance at survival. I believe we’ve evolved to ensure the survival of ourself and our offspring and the survival of humanity as a whole. In that order.
For some reason, this discussion is reminding me of a debate about the differences between morals and ethnics. That went way over my head. I’m not cut out to argue these things, which is why I’m not majoring in humanities.
November 29th, 2009 at 1:44 am
@Wrathkal: No, I don’t have one. >_> Man, I need to start getting connected with people!
Well,
I’m a gentlemanand like to share the pleasure all around. It takes brains to remember a girl’s soft spots and her favorite moves. xP@Algester: You hit the nail on the head. I don’t think it’s as bad(?)
@Reikon: I understand what you’re saying. Currently, I just don’t believe genetics is a strong argument since there are many contradictory flaws. Logically, complete strangers shouldn’t even be considered because they have no genetic connections and harms the rescuer’s chances of survival but there have been many occasions where this came true regardless.
Well, I personally like talking about these kind of things. I think everyone questions about the meaning and purpose of life and it’s great that we’re constantly exploring the possibilities. I do appreciate your thoughts. I’m no humanities major myself but I enjoy the casual, rational discussion.